Israeli IAI Lavi
This video contains (now) rare footage of Israel's indigenous Tactical Fighter project, the Lavi ("Young Lion", in Hebrew). Though the deign itself was entirely Israeli, lots of foriegn technical support was invested into it --- notably it's American-designed PW1120 turbofan, and French-designed DEFA 552 30mm autocannons.
The Lavi boasted startling performance for it's time --- it was supersonic at all altitudes, it could take stresses of 9+G's, and boasted more than twice the range and payoad of an F-16. Unfortunately, this performance made it more expensive than the F-16 (probably US $45 million, Vs. US $30 million), and the IDF selected the F-16 instead.
With Israel either unable or unwilling to find a foreign customer, the project atrophied and became defunct. It's like the old saying goes; "There are four dimensions in aircraft design; Height, Span, Length, and Politics".
Also, here are a few interesting fact bites about the Lavi;
- The Lavi was actually conceived as a scaled down version of a previous IAI project, the 'Arie' ("Lion", in Hebrew), which was a HUGE twin-engined Air Superiority Fighter that would have had F-15-like performance.
- The F-15 istelf was the reaon the Arie was canceled; after all, why spend all that money developing, testing, marketing, and buying 50-or-so aircraft from scratch, when you can import a simialr foriegn design with the same perfomance sooner, andfor much less money?
- Many of the same companies that contributed systems for use in the Lavi, ALSO povided technical support for the F-16, F-20, F/A-18, and Mirage 2000 --- the Lavi's commercial competitors!
- The IDF's requirements were originally for 300(!) Lavi's. Only about half that many F-16's were ever operated by the IDF.
And finally, a couple of rumors...;
- Allegedly, the U.S. Gov't "persuaded" Israel to cease development of formidable indigenous warplanes to thwart a potential "upset" in the Mid-East balance of power. (Also, it would be an embarrasment for the USAF if a "small-timer", like Israel, independantly built and fielded an overwhelmingly better fighter than the F-16!)
- Allegedly, Lavi technology (possibly complete airframes) was sold to China, to cut IAI's losses. The fact that the new Chengdu J-10 bears an unmistakable resemblance to the Lavi (and not-so-much the J-9, from which it was supposedly derived), leads many to conclude that the J-10 may in fact be a further development of the Lavi.
Tags: Lavi, IDF
The Lavi boasted startling performance for it's time --- it was supersonic at all altitudes, it could take stresses of 9+G's, and boasted more than twice the range and payoad of an F-16. Unfortunately, this performance made it more expensive than the F-16 (probably US $45 million, Vs. US $30 million), and the IDF selected the F-16 instead.
With Israel either unable or unwilling to find a foreign customer, the project atrophied and became defunct. It's like the old saying goes; "There are four dimensions in aircraft design; Height, Span, Length, and Politics".
Also, here are a few interesting fact bites about the Lavi;
- The Lavi was actually conceived as a scaled down version of a previous IAI project, the 'Arie' ("Lion", in Hebrew), which was a HUGE twin-engined Air Superiority Fighter that would have had F-15-like performance.
- The F-15 istelf was the reaon the Arie was canceled; after all, why spend all that money developing, testing, marketing, and buying 50-or-so aircraft from scratch, when you can import a simialr foriegn design with the same perfomance sooner, andfor much less money?
- Many of the same companies that contributed systems for use in the Lavi, ALSO povided technical support for the F-16, F-20, F/A-18, and Mirage 2000 --- the Lavi's commercial competitors!
- The IDF's requirements were originally for 300(!) Lavi's. Only about half that many F-16's were ever operated by the IDF.
And finally, a couple of rumors...;
- Allegedly, the U.S. Gov't "persuaded" Israel to cease development of formidable indigenous warplanes to thwart a potential "upset" in the Mid-East balance of power. (Also, it would be an embarrasment for the USAF if a "small-timer", like Israel, independantly built and fielded an overwhelmingly better fighter than the F-16!)
- Allegedly, Lavi technology (possibly complete airframes) was sold to China, to cut IAI's losses. The fact that the new Chengdu J-10 bears an unmistakable resemblance to the Lavi (and not-so-much the J-9, from which it was supposedly derived), leads many to conclude that the J-10 may in fact be a further development of the Lavi.
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Uploaded on April 22, 2007
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Well for one the Lavi had a less powerful engine than the F-16, which in turn gave it a lower thrust to weight ratio.
The initial F16A may have enjoyed a T/W ratio advantage over the Lavi, but the later versions of the F16 took on much weight because of all the new equipment and structural modifications required to fulfil its new role as a fighter bomber. So the F16 did not have a significant advantage in T/W ratio. Besides, T/W ratio is only one of the numerous parameters that are influential in air to air combat. Others, such as wing loading, drag lift ratio, thrust drag ratio are equally if not more important. The Lavi enjoyed a clear advantage in wing loading (300kg/m² vs 440kg/m²) due to its huge delta wing and canard (the delta-canard configuration giving in increased lift in almost all configurations compared to the classical tail arrangement on the F16 that destroys lift), and also had an advantage in drag lift ratio, especially in the transonic and supersonic range due to the low aspect delta wing. So the Lavi would have had much better flight performances than the F16.
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The Lavi was also very unstable due to its design.
This is plain stupid, the F16 is also an unstable design, it is even the first operational %u2018electric jet%u2019 designed to be unstable in order to increase its reactivity. The F16 like the Lavi could not fly w/out its computer controlled fly by wire system. The Lavi being more recent would even have a more refined flight control system that, combined with its more advanced aerodynamic features, would grant him superiority over the F16 in the dog fight arena. The canard arrangement gives even greater control at high AOA and better pointability.
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The Lavi's internal fuel capacity was also much less than that of the F-16.
That is also non sense. The Lavi was based on the F16 but had a smaller, lighter airframe (thus the lower internal fuel capacity) with lower drag. It had much larger wings thus larger tanks in the wings. In the end the fuel fraction of the Lavi was not significantly different and even marginally better (0.38 vs 0.37 for F16C blk30).
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The designers also gave the Lavi a conventional seat rather than a reclined seat like the F-16, which meant two things...Less tolerance for G load and a near inability to pilot the aircraft with the left hand.
Another total bulls***. The F16 is flown with a sidestick controller from the right hand, there is absolutely no way you can control the F16 from the left hand. The Lavi on the contrary had a central column and could be flown from both hands. On top of that, the F16 stick is almost universally disliked for its lack of strength sensation (being based on micro-displacement), it is hard to get accustomed to it and to judge the aircraft response to inputs. This has been the cause of a number of accidents over the years.
The more reclined seat in the F16 gives more G tolerance but this can also be achieved through other means like better training or better G-suit (e.g. the Libelle G suit). The less reclined seat gave better visibility on the cockpit displays.
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Further, stating that it could carry more payload than the F-16 is a little misleading. The two most inner wing hard points were for drop tanks only. I would say they could have carried equal ammounts of ordinance. Its range was nearly identical to that of the F-16, but still less.
While being 1 ton lighter, the Lavi had a max take off weight of 19 tons and the F16C blk 30 of 'only' 17 tons. While carrying less internal fuel it has almost the same range ! This proves that the Lavi had a much better aerodynamic and a stronger airframe. And, as Israel is a small country, the supposed lower range of the Lavi (payload-range figures are somewhat more complicated than that) would not matter that much, especially since it was fitted for in flight refuelling.
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Also, most high performance aircraft now and at that time are/were supersonic at all altitudes so thats a pointless argument.
But not with heavy loads.
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Now while being an Israeli design, 40% of the over $6 Billion in development and production costs were paid by the US. The only thing that cause the cancellation of the program was when the US withdrew financial support.
Because the Lavi would have threatened the sales of the F16 on the international market.
It should not be inferred that the F16 is a bad aircraft, but the Lavi -as a more recent development of the already very successful F16- obviously enjoyed key advantages over its father. The USAF also investigated the use of a delta wing on the F16 with the F16XL program but they were happy enough with the performances of the basic airframe and never gave suit.
such us?tell me i dont want to be misinformed
Well for one the Lavi had a less powerful engine than the F-16, which in turn gave it a lower thrust to weight ratio. The Lavi was also very unstable due to its design. The Lavi's internal fuel capacity was also much less than that of the F-16. The designers also gave the Lavi a conventional seat rather than a reclined seat like the F-16, which meant two things...Less tolerance for G load and a near inability to pilot the aircraft with the left hand. Further, stating that it could carry more payload than the F-16 is a little misleading. The two most inner wing hard points were for drop tanks only. I would say they could have carried equal ammounts of ordinance. Its range was nearly identical to that of the F-16, but still less. Also, most high performance aircraft now and at that time are/were supersonic at all altitudes so thats a pointless argument. Now while being an Israeli design, 40% of the over $6 Billion in development and production costs were paid by the US. The only thing that cause the cancellation of the program was when the US withdrew financial support.
What plane is that?
The IAI Lavi.
Was it to tough competitor for F-16? maybe. A great lookin aircraft with modern style canards, that improve manouvreability and short-field performance..
With twice the range and payload of the F-16? You bet! I don't know the data on the Lavi's take-off/landing abilities, but as you suggesed, they are probably better than what an F-16 can manage.
The problem with the Lavi was it's cost --- it was much cheaper to import F-16s. It would probably have taken a decade to develop, as well.
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There's a lot of misinformation listed...where did you pull it from?
such us?tell me i dont want to be misinformed
The references to the Lavi's construction, perfomance, and equipment are from "The Copmlete Book of Fighters", by William Green and Gordon Swanborough. The Reference to the Arie is from IAI itself (exept the rationale behind choosing the F-15 instead --- that is merely conventional wisdom). The (suggested) price of the Lavi is my own estimate, based on it's technology and Israel's aircraft manufacturing capability.
As for technical support, Pratt & Whitney also made the engine used in the F-16. The mane of the company that manufactures the DEFA 552 (which are aslo used in the Mirage 2000) escapes me, but Israel built them under a liscence from that firm.
The last two claims are only rumors, AS STATED ABOVE. The first one simply make sense, and the second comes from lucrative arms deals with China in the early 90's --- and the J-10 DOES look like the Lavi.
There's a lot of misinformation listed...where did you pull it from?
such us?tell me i dont want to be misinformed